Reports from the 2019 Annual Meeting of the California Tax Bar and California Tax Policy Conference
| Publication year | 2020 |
Betty Williams, moderator for the panel, kicked off the Toast to Women in Tax. This is the 4th year the Toast has been held at the Annual Meeting of the California Tax Bar and Tax Policy Conference. We were fortunate to be sponsored by two amazing firms: Greenburg Traurig and Morgan Lewis.
First question to the panel: Any distinguishing events in your career, positive or negative, that impacted your experience if gender played a role.
Kristen Kane: I am the Chief Counsel for Office of Tax Appeals. I'd like to talk about gender bias. There is a presumption of authority and the presumption of correctness that goes with unconscious bias. We link "leader" and "man" and "lawyer" and "man" in our heads. Google the image "attorney." Of the first 85, 20 were women and 65 were men. This does not reflect our industry. It does reflect the perspective. In my job experience, I was asked to go for a 6th interview. I asked why I was not progressing. I was told that they like you, but are not sure that you have the command to run a 200 million dollar program for the governor's office. The questions that I had been asked during the interview process did not relate to that. I went into the next interview with command. I felt that I was high jacking the interview, but that was the last interview before I got hired. Reminds me of the saying about Fred Astair and Ginger Rogers. "She had to do everything that he did but backwards and in high heels."
Judge Cohen: I started law school 55 years ago. There was no such thing as Women in Tax. The panel yesterday with men describing affirmative action would have been non-existent. In my day, senior professors would call on women every day and junior professors would try to find out who was available to date. I was told that women do not belong in tax. In 1966, I was interviewed by downtown law firms that came to the school, but was only told why they would not hire a woman. I did have a summer job with a law firm, but was told that a law firm that size could not assimilate a woman. I ended up working for a solo practitioner who could not get someone of my caliber as a man. I was there for 15 years. Then I got a call that they were looking for a women to apply to the Tax Court. I felt like I was the subject of affirmative action. I succeeded Cynthia Long. Took senior status a few months early to ensure she got the "woman's spot." I thought I was filling out Judge Hall's 5 year term. First year in law school, first year in practice and my first year on the Tax Court were the best because I felt like I finally belonged. I was the first woman Chief Judge of the Tax Court. We waited a long time for Judge Marvel after that. The Tax Court is different now. Nine judges are married to lawyers, 7 of them are men. Things have changed so much.
Betty Williams: If someone is trying to figure out their path, what should they do? Anything you think about, piece of advice that a mentor gave you or someone told you on how to get ahead.
Kristen Kane: People go back and forth between private and public practice all of the time. Something that was told to me and stuck with me—You are never going to be the strongest, fastest, prettiest person in the room, but you can always be the hardest working and no one can take this from you.
Judge Cohen: Never assume the judge knows anything. Don't back down. Now speaking as a judge, do not insult the judge's intelligence. Back in the day, I would make friends with the wives so they wouldn't be suspicious of me. They were always the ones who stood behind their husbands. Make friends with the ones really in power.
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Betty Williams: Was there ever a time when you felt like your gender was holding you back?
Kristen Kane: Not had as much explicit bias. I was told you cannot be a lawyer and a mother. You have to pick. I was told that a week before I was getting married.
Betty Williams: Do you have any incidences of men helping to promote women?
Kristen Kane: Been lucky to have a lot of mentors, male and female. All were very supportive. I don't feel that gender played as much of a role as much as being a young tax lawyer in the field. Amount of paternalism is directed more to women, than to men. It comes across in tone and address. It feels different for women.
Betty Williams: Anyone in the audience would like to be a judge, needs career advice or wants to be a manager, is there any advice you would give people?
Judge Cohen: Not being on Facebook!
Kristen Kane: Be here (referring to the conference). Tax world is a small world. Keep it kosher at these larger events. You never know who you will meet. Make sure you attend and know what is going on.
Judge Cohen: Most are known through bar associations. You become known for working on committees; becoming specialists. Tax Court is quite different. We are diverse. Seven are women. One was just nominated yesterday. We have three black judges and a few openly gay judges. Work hard, develop your skills and your name.
Talk to someone you don't know. Go to things you are not sure about. Make some good relationships. Get to know individuals who are Solo/Small firm.
Laura Buckley: I heard a saying, if a man is asked to speak, he says "yes, I know 10% of this topic" whereas a woman would say "Oh, no, I only know 90% of this topic." Women have a tendency to present themselves differently. What advice can you give?
Kristen Kane: Men and women do interview differently. Men act confidently. Women are self-effacing. Think you are being modest. We are told to be modest from a very young age. An interview is not the place to be modest. Talk about how awesome you are.
Judge Cohen: Haven't really observed this. Law clerks do progress.
Betty Williams: I am asked to speak all of the time. I still agree to speak even if it is a topic I am not the most familiar with. You are asked to speak for a reason. Ask them for help too.
Laura Buckley: What if they said, we need a woman for the panel. How does that make you feel?
Betty Williams: I ask myself "What does this do for me? Will it help my resume?"
Judge Cohen: I was once asked to be on the Attorney General's Advisory Committee. The meeting was held in a private men's club in Washington DC. Obviously, I was pretty unusual. One of the gentlemen said to me, "You cannot sit out here." The bathroom for women was in the basement. I went along to get along. I was then asked to join and I said "why should I?" I wouldn't be offended if I was asked to be the token women on the panel. I would take advantage of it. You can prepare. Or you can fake it.
Kristen Kane: Women only seem to apply only if they tick every box. Men apply even if all they have is a California law license.
Dick Shaw: Time to get the male view here. Its been 60 years since I went to law school. I've seen the progress real time. We were looking for help, but women were not there. I asked when I wanted someone on the panel. I wanted a female on the panel because you have value different from the male panelists. When I started, I was scared to death because there were experts in the room, but they were there because they wanted to hear what I had to say. My male perspective is you have value so get out there and do it.
Betty Williams: Don't forget who you are and what you have achieved.
Julie Treppa: Both Kristen Kane and Judge Cohen were appointed, although you had to be interviewed to get there. You had to do a certain amount of networking and had to let people know you were interested in being interviewed.
Judge Cohen: I was asked because I was a woman. White House sent over 10 names—all were men. I succeeded Judge Hall.
Kristen Kane: I was already a public appointee. So excited when I saw the legislation. I called and said please interview me. I already had the contacts to get in. Only had one interview this time.
Betty Williams: What is next?
Judge Cohen: Dinner.
With that, thank you both so much for being an inspiration. Raise your glasses for a Toast to Women in Tax!
By Jozel Brunett
First of all, congratulations Carl on your very well deserved award. I am pleased and honored to have been asked by you to give your introduction.
The V. Judson Klein Award was established in 1978, and is named after the first Chair of the Taxation Section. Klein was known for his keen and imaginative intellect, passion for the law, great personal integrity and legal professionalism. The award is given annually to a tax attorney who has demonstrated this same high level of professionalism, passion, and excellence in the tax law field.
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I can think of no one more deserving of this award than Carl.
I am going to start back at the beginning when Carl first came to the FTB. Carl joined the FTB as an intern in the Multistate Tax Bureau of the FTB Legal Division during the fall of 1995. I had just started at the FTB the previous year in the summer of 1994. Carl became a tax counsel in February 1996. He quickly rose up the ladder, as befitting a person of his dedication and talents, through the technical and then management ranks, eventually being promoted to Counsel, Multistate Tax Affairs, a position initially held by Ben Miller. In this position, Carl was recognized as the key legal expert on multistate and multinational tax issues. Ben and Carl are the only two individuals who have held this distinguished position.
While at the FTB, Carl was instrumental in drafting the mutual...
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